Reader Response :
I am so very heartened by the move of the Baltimore Presbytery and their Covenant. What a wonderful witness not only to the PCUSA but to the world. The song lyric to "We are the church together" perhaps is being lived out and modeled for all.
I'm in my fifth presbytery in 30 years of ministry and this Covenant made me very happy and hopeful.
I have read it in my paper copy of the Outlook but didn't find it here online... is there a link?
Reader Response :
Some time ago while serving as chair of the Higher Education/Campus Ministry committee of a Presbytery we were in a discussion about budget cuts. (and friends this was 15 years ago). One woman who wanted more money for presbytery mission said that the college budget could be cut and no one would miss it.
I hesitated, trying to find the right words to respond. I said well let's think if we cut off our young people from being ministered to by Presbyterian College Support/campus ministries when they leave school and are on their own will they go 'back' to being Presbyterian? Who then will fund your mission?
It was a thought that has lingered
Reader Response :
Dear Jack, I very much appreciated your article and the way your work with the Outlook has continued to make this a valued resourse in so many ways for us all.
It seems that we so easily want to break off to we/they and I just keep thinking that 'they' is a 4-letter word that is often so destructive.
Yes, the church is changing...it always has as an organic entity.
Again Thank you
Reader Response :
There is a difference in calling for health care reform and pushing a socialist one-payer (government run) system as the PCUSA is currently. Highlighting that there are major problems and gaps and asking for broad discussion and differing solutions is one thing, advocating for one view that has been repeatedly shown to cost more, create rationing, and stifle medical innovation is another.
Are there other options available that do not create massive government bureaucracy leading to graft and corruption? Are there options that honors people's freedoms, innovation, hard work, and charity?
I have posited such an option on my blog and would invite discussion on this crucial issue:
http://timeforthetruth.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/time-for-a-new-idea-health-savings-plans/
Reader Response :
Is capitalism capable of failure at any point?
Or is capitalism above and beyond reproach at all points?
If I have my head in a Marxist textbook (which I don't; I prefer to read the Bible), I wonder what your textbook is?
I'm not sure if you tried to answer my question or not. Glad you read my blog, however.
Response By :
Tom Eggebeen -
Los Angeles , CA - July 2, 2009
Reader Response :
The market meltdown is a good illustration of what Reinhold Niebuhr one said: "Original Sin can be empirically verified." The solution comes from "America the Beautiful:" "Confirm Thy Soul with self-control, Thy liberty with law."
I describe how to find an optimum balance between liberty with law on my web page
http://mirrorofnature.org/BBookPresentLibertyLaw.html
Reader Response :
In a piece as thorough going as the one above there is much to digest and discuss. However the author's statistics on divorce are outdated an incorrect related to church members/participants. George Barna has done the only extensive study on this matter and it behooves Christian leaders to be aware of the truth of the level of divorce in the church. ttp://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm comments extensively on Barna's findings, but suffice to say 25% of Presbyterians have experienced a divorce, and 2in3 marriages will go the distance, those who fail in their first marriage tend to repeat this unfortunate experience, thereby skewing the overall percentage of all christian marriages since second marriages fail at a rate of 3 in 4 for those prior divorced.
On disciplining in the church I have been part of actions that were mediated for slander, and mishandling church funds. In both cases the persons were more outraged by the accountability than anything, saying they had not don... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
I have three counter-points to your article:
First, is it the New Wineskins Movement or larger denominational decisions that have "provoked" the exodus of churches from the PC(USA)? Did the NWAC appear in a vacuum?
Second, how many congregations would have left or would leave the PC(USA) if they held their own property, as is the practice in at least two other Presbyterian denominations (I am thinking of the PCA and EPC specifically)? In our current system, some congregations may not leave because it is too much of a hassle, or they don't want to risk losing everything they have built up over the years. In a related point, majorities of some congregations have left, but because the building stays within the PC(USA), the "congregation" is not recorded as leaving, even though most of the members have indeed left. First Church of Paola comes to mind.
Third, while I recognize that members leave or drop out for a variety of reasons (not all of them theological), it is very difficult to... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Re: On civil unions (pub. April 27/May 4, 2009
I appreciated very much Thomas Wilson's article … which suggested that it is high time that clergy in the United States cease and desist from having any role in civil marriage contracts.
As a Presbyterian pastor for 34 years, I have always felt a bit uncomfortable signing the marriage license as an agent of the civil authority when my role as a pastor is clearly to witness to the exchange of covenant vows and convey God's blessing and the blessing of the church.
Mr. Wilson cites that in all other countries in the world (except for the United States and Great Britain), a couple must go first to the civil authority for a marriage license to be lawfully married, and then if they wish to exchange covenant vows in a religious ceremony, this is presided over by a member of the clergy. Therefore, members of the clergy have no part in the civil contract of marriage.
This removes the "conflict of interest" where many of us who are clergy feel u... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
The situation is complex.
First, although I agree with your implied accusation of hypocrisy, it's worth noting that the issues with gays and heterosexual offenders aren't exactly the same. Our standards involving adultery are clear. It's actually bringing the disciplinary cases that doesn't happen.
But with gays the issue isn't disciplinary cases. All the ruckus is caused by remedial cases, where someone accuses a part of the Church (often one they aren't involved in) of allowing accepting gays when they shouldn't. This is at the bottom a difference about Scriptural interpretation. I.e. these are heresy trials, not disciplinary cases.
Your observation however is quite correct: People are concerned about this issue when they don't seem to be concerned in the same way about other behavioral issues. That suggests to me that the accusation about being influenced by the culture may have it reversed. It's pretty clear that Americans have a visceral reaction to homosexuality. The pattern o... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
I have some observations:
If you recall, Fidelity and Chastity is worded the way it is because people said it was inappropriate to discipline only gays. The fact that it is being enforced only against them suggests that the original concern was justified. I don't quite want to say that the broadened wording was done in bad faith; perhaps commissioners really expected the provisions to be enforced broadly; but if so I think the evidence was all against them.
However I would argue that the actual procedures we're seeing involving gays aren't really discipline. We have moved to a very narrow definition of discipline, which is seldom invoked. We can't do discipline for all sin, or our churches would be empty. Broad Christian tradition is to invoke discipline only in the case of publicly scandalous behavior. I believe discipline is currently used primarily in cases of sexual misconduct by pastors or officers that abuse their leadership position in the Church. In that case it's needed to p... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Perhaps. But I think a more likely future is an acceleration of member and church losses after gay/lesbian ordination passes in 2010. Some churches will fight to leave. More will just quietly wither away as traditional members say sad goodbyes. The liberal wing knows it is about to win a 40 year fight. And the conservative wing senses it coming, too. The national PCUSA leadership is trying to sound less like the fully partisan player it is, on the liberal side, and more like a soothing voice
seeking common ground, trying to avoid triumphalism, at least in public, trying to stem the coming tide. A wise strategy, but transparent. Louisville knows what comes next. But it won't be able to restrain liberals from moving on to the next item on their agenda: gay marriage. Michael Adee and the New Light Presbyterians make no secret of it. In 2012, or shortly therafter, expect an amendment to require all PCUSA churches to be made available for gay/lesbian ceremonies. We're on a fairly straight l... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
When I first read this I dismissed it as another partisan rant from a tenured academic at another liberal arts college. Then the responses drew me back to the article. Apart from its self-righteous tone, is the presupposition that those who may not in full agreement with the author's theological perspective are by definition "anathema, and not part of the church of David Gushee. I think I will get over that.
As one of the few clergy, or people in general who have been to both Iraq, Gitmo, Cuba, and a host of other pleasant spaces about the globe I can only report all I encountered both personally and professionally discharged their duty with compassion, integrity, and personal honor for all under their care, friend and foe. If Dr. Gushee or others are unable to reconcile that, I personally do not care. It has been an honor to serve my country. We serve and sacrifice for all people, Dr. Gushee included.
Peter Gregory
Commander
Chaplain Corps
U.S. Navy (retired)
Reader Response :
I'm sorry I don't have the means to support Presbyterian Outlook. We desperately need to consider all sides of every issue. The UCC church says "God is still speaking" and they are right! God is speaking, but since God usually does not present a business card to us, we have to wade through a lot of drek to achieve any discernment. If you want to hear only what you want to hear, then there's no reason to follow any publication. Get an iPod and download gospel hymns. There is truth, all right, but truth can be viewed from any angle, so, like the blind men and the elephant, we are apt to have different impressions of the truth. I believe that we need to listen to all sides of a debate and determine for ourselves what the truth for our individual selves is. This can be highly divisive and unpleasant. We are individuals whom God loves as a parent loves a child. If you have more than one child, you know that one solution does not fit all problems. Therefore, you may give Jimmy a cook... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
For years our more conservative breathern in the PCA/SBC/EPCA have beat the horse that the PCUSA has ruptured members due to its various pronouncements and policy on hot-button social issues. And at times Louisville seems to shoot itself in the foot more often than not. But as the PCA and SBC have self-reported they too have recorded membership losses, in the case of the SBC, far greater on a per-centage basis than the PCUSA 2005-2008.
There is a major transformation going on in American religious practice, well documented on these pages, and need no further elaboration. The core issue/crises for the PCUSA is the historic concentration of congregations and buildings in the urban core of major cities in the NE and upper mid-west that reflected 19th century demeographic patterns. As the Mid-West hollows-out in outward migration, and the inner city core transitions to more racial/ethnic, away from the white WW2 "builder" generation, as they age and die, the PCUSA is at this point "ov... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
With all due respect, Mr. Haberer, The Presbyterian Outlook used to be a moderate publication. Under the leadership of Robert Bullock, Presbyterians could always count on opinions and articles that were balanced and fair. It was a refreshing and dependable changed from the far right agenda of The Layman and the the far left Presbyterians Today which came straight from the Louisville boardroom. Unfortunately, The Presbyterian Outlook has taken a left turn. Since you have become the Editor, one is never sure of what will appear. It has been even more apparent since your were on the PUP Commission. There is no wonder that you are struggling right now - even in the midst of our economic downturn. Presbyterians want fair and balanced reporting - not musings from an Editor who suggests that we should consider the value of same-sex unions. WOW! What a change from the years past! How sad for those of us who seek a voice from the middle!
Reader Response :
Rev. Williams has good valid points. I would add that those who approve of the American Congress' approved, criteria of interrogation technics are considering the saving of human life as a motivation for tough measures. I wonder if Mr. Gushee also approves of taking the lives of babies to avoid the embarrasement or inconvenience of giving birth.
Reader Response :
One can hope the committee will add their research to the discussion of an issue that some make complex. Hopefully, when 'history' of the issue and laws or customs will include more than those of current agendas. Research should show that sexuality has been a conumdrum since the beginning of time. History points out universalisms (many having a biblical foundation) concerning procreation and the part in plays in the continuum of family, clan, tribe, city, state, and nation.
A balanced discussion includes more than a rehash of the current conundrum and personal agendas.
Reader Response :
This writer errs on at least two counts: 1) He identifies the enhanced interrogation techniques approved for our use as "tortune," when actual torture is painful and disfiguring. We do not use tortune as our enemies do. 2) He includes the shocking indignities used at Abu Graib as if they were among approved techniques. They were not, and their perpetuators have been prosecuted. The continued proliferation of these uncritical and erroneous views is irrespoonsible.
Response By :
Rev. Ernest Williams -
June 22, 2009
Reader Response :
I am so sorry that CTI has to cut back so drastically. I don't know who has the time or money to savor a freshly printed newspaper or magazine these days. Actual news is out as fast as it happens, for good or ill. Print just can't keep up. This makes me very sad because I have always loved the printed word. We have to adapt to change, but I really regret this one.
Reader Response :
Congratulations to one of the most admired and respected Christian leaders of our time. I have known Steve and his parents since Steve was a college student in Walla Walla, Wa. Blessings on the seminary and Steve in the years to come.
Andy
Reader Response :
Mr. Eggebeen:
No need to wonder. The Reformation, which founded Protestant Christianity, opened northern Europe to the scientific revoloution and, coincidentally, fostered capitalism with its middle class. Protestant Christianity has been on the forefront of creating social justice by creating opportunity for self-betterment, including a world view that emphasizes the worth of each individual. The idea that each and every human being bears the reflective worth of God, compelled missionaries to carry the good news of God's grace to Africa and Asia. The Industrial Revolution driven by capitalism provided the drive and machinery of imperialism that made possible the civilizing mission from China and Korea to Indochina and Africa. Get your head out of Marxist textbooks and understand that the world is far better off today because of capitalism than it every could have been under socialism. Furthermore, Protestant Christianity drove the notion that men are created with rights to life... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Mr. Reed, I was following the logic of your comment just fine (although I disagree with it). Your last sentence shocked me, however: "If this were true we would have stoned you to death by now." Everything else you had to say was washed away by the fear I felt when reading that sentence.
Reader Response :
After reading his prayer to Jesus in the June 22, 2009 issue of The Presbyterian Outlook I feel very badly for Professor David Gushee. He is obviously overwrought with great distress. How else to explain such statements as “Clearly, your church in this land (America) has been deeply corrupted” or that American Christians are “fundamentally ungodly, fundamentally a negation of true Christianity”? My heart goes out to fellow human beings holding fast to venerated principles only to have misperceptions of self defense bring about such despair.
Professor, please take some time to consider the issues of Christianity, self defense and war. Are we Christians to defend our fellow citizens when our nation is under attack by an enemy? Is there such a thing as a just war? If we can save thousands of lives through the gathering of information from one or several individuals, are we not obliged to gather such information? Who could, for the principle of never causing discomfort to an... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Dr. Hayner is JUST what the PC(USA) needs to lead the vision of the denomination as well as Columbia. Kudos to the committee that must have had to swim against the current to make such a decision. This appointment gives me hope that the denomination might just matter. Dr. Robbie F. Castleman
Reader Response :
What awesome news! We certainly agree with John Z about the indelible mark on lives left by Steve (and Cheryl). Thank you for helping build our faith in Christ and for your caring for so many from West Side, Whitman and UPres days. Congratulations Steve.
Response By :
Erick and Sharon Isaacson -
June 18, 2009
Reader Response :
An OUTSTANDING selection on the part of Columbia! Steve Hayner has left an indelible mark on the lives of hundreds of Christians and I include myself. He will provide leadership that will make Columbia the leader in missional theology among the Presbyterian seminaries and influence the emerging shape of theological education across North America.
Reader Response :
Way to go, Eric! Jimmy Choung's video, and book, are really helpful for this generation. And instead of the individualism of the Four Spiritual Laws, it gives large space for community and a view to the whole world. Keep up the good work, E!
Reader Response :
The background music made the movie. No real substance to the so-called plot, just another anti on Rome. I saw it, won't recommend it, certainly wouldn't see it a second time.
Reader Response :
http://www.opednews.com/articles/FROM-PRAYER-TO-DEMONSTRATI-by-ALONE-090603-813.html
FROM PRAYER TO DEMONSTRATION: The Neglected History of East German Churches in the 1980s
Eppelmann, a former pastor, was active for decades in the church in East Germany and suffered for his beliefs and strong stances.
For example, Eppelman opposed the East German Communist states military draft in the 1960s and served time in jail for this. In 1990, however, he suddenly found himself appointed as Defense Minister for the very last East German government.
Eppelmann changed the name of the office as well—he changed it to the "Ministry of Defense and Disarmament". Eppelmann has since served in the parliament and for government for a United Germany several times over the past two decades. As far as my research can demonstrate, there has never been another government in history with a “Ministry of Defense and Disarmament”.
Reader Response :
I believe Jack's comments are dead-on, especially in the last three paragraphs.
If there is a realignment of mainline denominations along ideological lines, it WILL necessarily be a hitching of our wagons to the latest social or political trends of the era. It could not be otherwise. It WILL be an admission by the church that the world of political power is more interesting than the call to serve Christ, in whom "there is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and famle; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." It will represent Christians allowing the church to be used as a tool to promote a partisan agenda which will often be opposed to the gospel rather than allowing the church to be the body of Christ for the world. It will represent Christians allowing the agenda of the world to break the bonds of community formed by the Spirit to bear witness to the kingdom of God.
I envision a future where Christians become more aware, not less, of ... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Returning to church based work after a career in Federal Service, in my mid-50s, I have come to identify with those who have the brain, body, and relative "youth" of energy and ideas to revive a very troubled church. And its true, the church I was ordained in 1982, is not what I serve now, nor in any form of structure going forward. I only wished Presbyteries and other governing bodies of the church trying to keep the church of 1959 alive would get the memo.
If we are talking about younger clergy, 40 and under, as a resource for the church, sooner or later one must address the issues with the Board of Pensions and how they conceptualize and structure clergy health care and retirement. Right now the BOP runs its affairs like GM or the UAW. It assumes clergy careers of 30-40 years in the same line or type of work, church-related, retirement at 65, at a minimum, and healthy government programs, social security, medicare. Demeographics of life, careers, spousal issues, family issue... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
For the Church to be newly vital and innovative, we need more than the vision, resolve, witness, or appeal of Jesus. We need Jesus Himself, crucified for our sins and risen for our life. We the Church are His, and any good we might do, we do in His strength and through what He has accomplished for us. We need to get rid of the idea that we're the team on the field and Jesus is our coach on the sidelines, or worse, our cheerleader. And we need to get rid of fear, which often holds us Christians back from carrying out our calling as Christ's Body on earth. The good news is, in His Son God offers us His perfect love that drives out fear. He is ours through the Holy Spirit! He has defeated sin and death! What more can we require?
Reader Response :
Re: Red Letter Christians (pub. May 18, 2009)
In reading Jack Haberer’s editorial … I was struck by the easy assumption that progressives make concerning “Red Letter Christians” as the new evangelicals. Tony Campolo and Jim Wallis are quoted as endorsing the distinctive message of Jesus for us and our world. That is as it should be. There is no doubt that the church through the ages has had a very uneven loyalty to the teachings of our Lord. We certainly need to be more assertive in showing our discipleship by providing help and hope for the poor and the oppressed. The easy assumption, however, is that these progressives endorse legislation and governmental social policy to attain that end. Here is where evangelicals and progressive evangelicals part company. It is not more legislation and government that we need. It is more Christian discipleship that we need. And that does not necessarily mean that we all become legislative cheerleaders for the Democratic juggernaut that has... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Thanks, David, for a thoughtful piece on torture. I've been wondering the same thing myself. Thanks for putting it more eloquently than I can.
Reader Response :
The American religious experience has been informed and guided by Article One of the Bill of Rights. "Congress shall make no laws----------"
Much of the pain of both the historic main-line church and their more evangelical brothers have been a misunderstanding and mis-application of its intent. If one reads the "Federalist Papers" or any other document of the era, the intent of the "Establishment Clause" was not to keep the Church out of the affairs of State, but to keep the State out of the affairs of the Church. The Founding Fathers knew quite well the corruption and debasement of the Church by the marriage of theology or church politics to that of the secular State.
This should serve as a warning to both Left and Right, Liberal, Conservative in hitching their wagon to the latest social or political trends of the era. As the wind blew in one direction in the post-Watergate/Vietnam era, a time of rapid growth of the conservative-evalgelical church, and the start of the mutli-de... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
Jack,
Why do you exclude the rising generation of young Reformed believers in your writing? There is a revolution going on in the Church, as more and more young men and women discover the richness of the Reformed faith and the meaningfulness of God's sovereignty in the system we call Calvinism. Why are these future leaders in the church excluded from PC(USA) discourse?
Not everyone under 40 who cares about the future of the Church endorses people like McLaren, Bell and Pagitt. Many of these young leaders are reading John Piper, R.C. Sproul, Joshua Harris and even Jonathan Edwards!
Let's (also) hear the story of these young, restless, Reformed evangelicals who are (also) the future of the church.
Reader Response :
How sad that Dr. Blount says that we have not purpose. I thought that the purpose of seminaries was to prepare ministers to share the Good News of Jesus Christ. How sad that Presbyterian School of Christian Education has now faded into the pages of history. If it were not for PSCE, the PCUSA would not be what it is today. Sometimes I wonder if our seminary administrators and professors are so full of themselves that they have no room for the Lord whom they claim to serve. How very sad!
Reader Response :
I treasure the contributions of many wonderful LGBT citizens, Christians, Presbyterians and friends. I also treasure the gifts and contributions of those who rejoice that Amendment 08-B did not pass. I agree with Jack Haberer that legislation is severely limited in it's ability to improve our denomination. I don't think beating folks over the head with law is likely to convert folks. I think it is very important that we realize that we all fall short, and that we avoid hurting one another. Focused education does not seem to me to hold much hope; rather experience with one another, and time.
Response By :
Charles Tubbs -
Canyon Lake , TX - June 3, 2009
Reader Response :
I am not at all convinced regarding popular premise that some folks are "gay" who represent a different, definable class of Christians. I do not believe it is proper to label people "gay" or "straight" and relate to them differently because of these labels. These labels are divisive and not at all helpful to our efforts as Christians as we seek to be one body in Christ. There is simply no such category as a "gay person" or a "straight person" as derived from Christ's teachings. I will not make distinctions that Christ does not ask me to make. Christ provides enough definition for us all about how to relate to His family. As we think about discipleship and church discipline, let us not start justifying our behavior because it is easy, pleasurable, natural, or even personally fulfilling. Let us examine our conduct to see if it consistent with what God has revealed as righteous and loving behavior toward one another. It really is that simple.
Let us love one another and avoid types of b... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
These sentences and paragraphs and thoughts and words-- i love to let them rattle around in my head. I like to dig in the soil for stones, too. What wonderful words. What an apt description of the tension between reading for content and reading to feed my soul.
Reader Response :
I would like to see a study done as to whether or not we need so many seminaries. Maybe it will prove my sense of things wrong. But, to me, it seems to be bad stewardship to have such a large number of seminaries, each with student bodies under 300 MDiv students. If we combine a few of them (and their endowments), we would have larger student bodies, faculties, and financial resources. My seminary, McCormick, absorbed Lane Seminary during the Great Depression. It is time to consider consolidation of our theological education work again, this time in the Great Recession.
Reader Response :
We have to get past the 'brick and mortar' conception of the seminary. Fifty years ago, seminaries were mirror images of their undergraduate counterparts: primarily residential, conservative, and academically focused. While most colleges have moved on to explore new modes of education and have embraced technology and the internet, many of our seminaries are falling behind. Seminaries tend to maintain a rigid framework of residential/full time enrollment at the expense of developing commuter and off-campus programs. Schools like my Alma Mater continue to sell off their buildings and shut down programs in a desperate attempt to stay afloat. Instead of developing more student-friendly commuter programs and expanding their capacity for distance learning programs, they emphasized their residential Doctoral and other 'graduate-level' programs that have now been suspended. There are many such examples of 'wasted opportunities' in our denomination's seminaries.
I think the University of... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
In response to your last line I agree that God has indeed put us together (at least for the time being) to do ministry in this time and place. The problem is that our differences are based on OUR views and not on God's Word which clearly condemns homosexuality. God loves the sinner, but God has also been very clear about its being unacceptable. Indeed the Church Universal has upheld GOD'S VIEW for over 2,000 years. When will the PCUSA recognize this truth? Before it is too late? I sincerely hope so.
Reader Response :
For me, the key question is "what kind of grace are we talking about?" "Common grace" is extended by God to all, whether or not they have salvation in Jesus Christ. In this sense, of course homosexual couples (or any other sexual partnership) receives "grace." "Saving grace" is something quite different. This is the grace that leads to faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and thus leads to eternal life. Is saving grace present in sexual relationships that the Word of God, as understood by about 99% of the universal Church throughout space and time, condemns?
There is also the difference between "cheap grace" and "costly grace." Does the affirmation of homosexual unions (or of any other sexual combination, for that matter) reflect cheap grace or costly grace? I would argue costly grace, which shows repentance and spiritual growth, does not lie in affirmation, but rather in conviction, repentance and restoration. The One-by-One Ministry offers God's costly grace to those wh... ...Read Full Response
Response By :
John Erthein -
Erie , PA - May 28, 2009
Reader Response :
While I appreciate David McCann's call for the church to invest in evangelism in the previous response, I believe the time, energy, effort, and money spent on the issue of sexual orientation is evangelism. Our church for too long has closed the door to the full inclusion of all of God's children. And that is the opposite of evangelism. Evangelism is good news, that God's love through Christ is intended for all. I'm glad we're taking this issue seriously enough to work toward the day when the Presbyterian Church ordains and marries gay people. This will not be the end of the church, but it's new beginning. I have no doubt that those who work for the full inclusion of gay people in the church are doing God's will. As a Bible-believing, evangelical Christian I have changed my mind on this issue, primarily on the basis of biblical study. I do not believe that 6 misunderstood and prejudicially interpreted Bible verses make a case against gays. It is only a matter of time before the... ...Read Full Response
Reader Response :
When does NO mean NO???? Thirty years of 'asked and answered' & almost 2000 years of perfect consistency on the issue.
Apparently what the proponents of loose sexual behavior want is to keep brining this sad issue up time and time again until folks get so sick of the conversation that they head for another denomination where real issues are given air time and truth is important to the process. Many fine souls have left already for greener pastures and free lands. Eventually, the residue will be ordaining sexual deviants of every color and strip because they will have the majority in a dying denomination. This will be their doom as everyone gets their just desserts.
